Cancelled order tip?


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:53 am
The only thing I am trying to understand from this is how did your order get canceled if you completed the delivery? Usually when a customer cancels the order, the store calls the driver and the driver returns. If the order is completed, and the customer calls and complains, it is the store's discretion to refund the order. If the order is refunded, there is no tip. If a manager or anyone canceled a completed order, this is poor management.

However, in my professional opinion, if the store made an order and dispatched the driver, and the ordered was canceled on the way to the destination, the driver, will obviously not receive any tip, however the store should feel morally (not legally) obligated to pay the driver partial mileage. If the driver leaves and attempts and completes the delivery then somehow the order is refunded or canceled (why was it canceled?) then the store should be morally (not legally) obligated to pay the driver the full mileage. If a tip was on an credit card order that was canceled, whether the order was completed or not, the driver forfeits the tip due to how the system works. The employer should not reimburse the driver for the tip on a canceled order, whether it is completed or not.

Master Driver
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:46 am
thejax wrote:The only thing I am trying to understand from this is how did your order get canceled if you completed the delivery?


Management, of each individual location, has the ability to cancel any order at any time prior to closing out the accounts at the end of the day. You should know this as someone who has stated to have been in the positions you have been in. Or have you never experienced managing an individual restaurant location?


thejax wrote: Usually when a customer cancels the order, the store calls the driver and the driver returns.


Uhmm... That might have been how it worked in your company, but that is not the way it usually works.

thejax wrote:If the order is completed, and the customer calls and complains, it is the store's discretion to refund the order.


Yes. No one is arguing that the store does not have the discretion to refund the order. What is being argued is that the order and the tip are separate events. The service that earned the tip was still provided. The owner of the tip was never consulted on whether or not they were willing to refund their property.


thejax wrote:If the order is refunded, there is no tip.


That is where there is disagreement. It is my argument, and that of others here, that the service that earned the tip was provided and that the tip is a separate event from the amount collected for the service provided by the employer. The employer has control over the portion of the receipt that is their property, no control over the portion of the receipt that is the property of the tipped employee. And that by refunding the customer that portion (the gratuity) the employer has disposed of the employee's property.


thejax wrote: If a manager or anyone canceled a completed order, this is poor management.


I agree. This statement does not address the issue being discussed though.

thejax wrote:However, in my professional opinion, if the store made an order and dispatched the driver, and the ordered was canceled on the way to the destination, the driver, will obviously not receive any tip,


While I may agree with this, this example is fact specific. The facts of the original post are materially different, making your example nonsensical (I seem to be using that word a lot today).

thejax wrote:however the store should feel morally (not legally) obligated to pay the driver partial mileage.


Uhmm... mileage and tips are mutually exclusive. And you would be wrong in regards to your assertion that the employer is not legally obligated to pay mileage. The use of the vehicle is not dependent upon whether or not an order is completed, only that the vehicle was used for the primary benefit of the employer. That the employer decide to cancel the order does not mitigate the employer's legal responsibility to ensure that they are paying the employee the applicable minimum wage.


thejax wrote:If the driver leaves and attempts and completes the delivery then somehow the order is refunded or canceled (why was it canceled?) then the store should be morally (not legally) obligated to pay the driver the full mileage.


Again, you misunderstand the employer's responsibility to ensure the employer is paying the employee the applicable minimum wage. mileage reimbursement and tips are mutually exclusive events and have very specific rules for each. I wonder as to why you bring up mileage reimbursement when the topic being discussed is gratuities. Is it simply to obfuscate?

thejax wrote:If a tip was on an credit card order that was canceled, whether the order was completed or not, the driver forfeits the tip due to how the system works.


Correct. It is this system that we are discussing. It is this system that we disagree with. If I provided the service that earned me a gratuity (which is my property), the employer should not have the ability to dispose of my property.

thejax wrote: The employer should not reimburse the driver for the tip on a canceled order, whether it is completed or not.


You confuse "reimburse" with "dispose". Our, or at least my, argument is that the employer should only be allowed to refund that portion of the customer's order that is the employer's property. The tip is never the employer's property. Since the tip is never the employer's property the employer should not be making any decisions regarding that amount.
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CSR/Phones
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:53 am
Management, of each individual location, has the ability to cancel any order at any time prior to closing out the accounts at the end of the day. You should know this as someone who has stated to have been in the positions you have been in. Or have you never experienced managing an individual restaurant location?

You are skating a fine line here. Don't ever question my experience or resume, I have busted my ass in the restaurant industry and I am the one with the experience, the education, the credentials, the service awards, and the business references to prove who I am, what I have accomplished, and what I am capable of. I don't need to explain myself to no one. You are no one to me. I have worked very hard to be where I am at. In the end, you are just a delivery driver. So watch your tone. And if you have a problem with that, private message me your contact info and I will be happy to give you a call and discuss your issues instead of arguing like children over the internet. I am here to help, not cause any problems. Thanks.


Uhmm... That might have been how it worked in your company, but that is not the way it usually works.


That is how it is supposed to work. When an order is canceled, the manager or phone person or makeline person or delivery driver in the store who spoke to the customer and canceled the order or noticed that the online ordering system sent a message to the store that the ordered was canceled, they are required to call the driver and inform them. This is poor management to not keep the driver in the loop. Management should be reprimanded for not doing this. It causes friction in the workplace and lowers employee moral.


Yes. No one is arguing that the store does not have the discretion to refund the order. What is being argued is that the order and the tip are separate events. The service that earned the tip was still provided. The owner of the tip was never consulted on whether or not they were willing to refund their property.


The owner of the tip (the customer who placed the order?) does not have to be consulted. It is bad business to call the customer and inform them that somehow the order was canceled and the driver still wants their tip. It makes the store look bad. I don't disagree that the service that earned the tip was still provided. However, due to poor management, the order was canceled, and the driver should not receive a tip, even if the customer intended to tip, because of how the system works. Again, management should know this and this was a poor management decision and not the drivers fault but something the driver has to accept. If you work for a store with a poor management team, I would suggest talking to their supervisors and/or work somewhere else.


That is where there is disagreement. It is my argument, and that of others here, that the service that earned the tip was provided and that the tip is a separate event from the amount collected for the service provided by the employer. The employer has control over the portion of the receipt that is their property, no control over the portion of the receipt that is the property of the tipped employee. And that by refunding the customer that portion (the gratuity) the employer has disposed of the employee's property.


You keep saying separate event. Its not a separate event. Its a separate line item on a delivery ticket in the point of sale system. An employer does have control of the drivers tip if they can cancel and order and forfeit your tip. Now, that doesn't make it morally correct but thats the way the cookie crumbles. And if by canceling the order, you state that the employer is disposing of the employees property? Well yes and no. Think of it as a cash tip. If a customer you delivered to did not tip you and told you he will get back to you about it then later that day the customer personally drops by the store and leaves your tip with the manager, that tip does not become your property until it is given to you, personally. So with that said, if the store, say, caught on fire, and the cash from the tip burned up in the cash register, the store should not be required to still give you that tip because it was not yet your property. Now, if the manager asked for all or a portion of your daily tips to be physically handed to them so that they could count and verify them and the manager for some reason refuses to give it back, then the tips were your property and that manager has a lot of explaining to do.


I agree. This statement does not address the issue being discussed though.

Who are you to judge that my statement does not address the issue being discussed? And YES it does it explain the issue fully. Because poor management lead to this order being canceled, which should not have ever happened in this case. The order should of been zeroed out so that you still got your tip. Thats not what happened here because your management team used POOR JUDGMENT.


Uhmm... mileage and tips are mutually exclusive. And you would be wrong in regards to your assertion that the employer is not legally obligated to pay mileage. The use of the vehicle is not dependent upon whether or not an order is completed, only that the vehicle was used for the primary benefit of the employer. That the employer decide to cancel the order does not mitigate the employer's legal responsibility to ensure that they are paying the employee the applicable minimum wage.


False. Your employer did not open their doors to serve the delivery drivers in their community who needed a job. The store is not there to serve you. You are there for your employer and your customers. Thats the type of relationship it is and thats how it works. If a store does not want to pay you mileage, they won't pay you mileage. The store does not care that you are using your vehicle and putting wear and tear on it for their benefit. You make it seem like you feel entitled to mileage and you aren't. Just as when someone gets in a car accident and they are legally entitled to compensation doesn't mean they will get it. Now... a "good" management team will still identify the store and employee relationship I mentioned previously but will care about their drivers and do what they can to keep them happy within reason. When I have my say in a restaurant operation, the drivers get a fair wage and fair mileage AND always get the mileage they deserve. However, I do not work for your particular store at this time and therefore, it is up to your management teams discretion on how all that works out. Which the odds do not seem very good for you because from what you describe, your management team makes poor decisions.


Again, you misunderstand the employer's responsibility to ensure the employer is paying the employee the applicable minimum wage. mileage reimbursement and tips are mutually exclusive events and have very specific rules for each. I wonder as to why you bring up mileage reimbursement when the topic being discussed is gratuities.

There is no misunderstanding. You just seem to have a control problem.


If I provided the service that earned me a gratuity (which is my property), the employer should not have the ability to dispose of my property.

I disagree. Again, its not your property. It is supposed to end up your property, but it is not your property yet. Your tip was forfeited due to a canceled order. This, in my opinion, was wrong, because of how management handled the order. This is a problem you need to take up with your manager's supervisor, such as the District Manager, Franchisee, or Owner. You management team needs to be retrained.


You confuse "reimburse" with "dispose". Our, or at least my, argument is that the employer should only be allowed to refund that portion of the customer's order that is the employer's property. The tip is never the employer's property. Since the tip is never the employer's property the employer should not be making any decisions regarding that amount.


I am not confused. I went to college. I know those two word mean two different things. You are very condescending. You ever read what you type? And you are right, the management team should be "able", not "allowed", to refund the order, which is the employers portion. Which is easy to do. The manager goes in the order with their security pin and zeros out the order. Order not canceled and driver still gets the tip.

I think you seem very standofish to me because I am not a delivery driver. I need you to understand, why I shouldn't have to explain anything to you, I was a delivery driver for many years and have also worked hard to fight for all the delivery drivers in the stores i have worked in in a management and consulting capacity. Now while I am not an expert and I can always learn something, you need to understand I am on YOUR SIDE. I am not here to bash delivery drivers. I am here to offer advice and also gain perception of drivers for my own educational purposes to help make work conditions at places I have contracts for a better working environment for drivers. So I ask that you respect where I come from and know that I respect where you come from.

You also think of things from an hourly employee's prospective, not an employers prospective. In regards to this tip situation, I want to inform you that everything in the point of sale system gets reported to corporate. Such as, if it is a Domino's franchise, corporate will see the sales data and the canceled orders data. You may be in a situation that your management team is making poor decisions because someone above them is telling them to cancel the order after a driver left because the sales data presents itself differently then if the order is canceled. I don't know why upper management may want to see an ordered canceled over zeroing out, so thats something you need to discuss with your management team and their supervisors, if appropriate.

According to the SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) in my experience, and its not like I have only done this once or twice, once a driver leaves, the order should be canceled IF the driver has not completed the delivery. Second, I have no idea why an order would be canceled if the driver has already delivered. Theoretically you can't cancel an order that is already in the customer's hands and the driver has left. The only scenario I see after a customer received the order is that the customer was upset about something, called the store, and the order is refunded. Which, if the order is refunded, the driver still does not get the tip, if the tip was on a credit card, in most cases.

Again, please share these things with your management staff so see where they stand. They may not know what they are really supposed to be doing.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:36 pm
Edit: Done editting. Got stuff to do, will respond to the rest of your response/comments later, maybe, hopefully.

thejax wrote:
Management, of each individual location, has the ability to cancel any order at any time prior to closing out the accounts at the end of the day. You should know this as someone who has stated to have been in the positions you have been in. Or have you never experienced managing an individual restaurant location?

You are skating a fine line here. Don't ever question my experience or resume, I have busted my ass in the restaurant industry and I am the one with the experience, the education, the credentials, the service awards, and the business references to prove who I am, what I have accomplished, and what I am capable of. I don't need to explain myself to no one. You are no one to me. I have worked very hard to be where I am at. In the end, you are just a delivery driver. So watch your tone. And if you have a problem with that, private message me your contact info and I will be happy to give you a call and discuss your issues instead of arguing like children over the internet. I am here to help, not cause any problems. Thanks.


OMG.. LOL... Thanks for the chuckle.

What were you expecting when you joined an employee, specifically a delivery driver, concentric forum?

In all seriousness, it is you that needs to watch your tone. You are not in your safe space. You are not in charge here. Here, I am management.

You chose to participate, freely. With that choice of participation you implicitly approved of the unpublished rules that are in the forum handbook; that you did not receive, nor asked for, nor will receive even if you ask for it (we're waiting for it to be printed, the printers are not being very responsive to our inquiries, you'll just have to wait /s). It was your responsibility, as a member, to seek that handbook; you should not expect management to protect your rights as a member. Management is only concerned about what is best for the "team" as a whole and not for you the individual.



thejax wrote:
Uhmm... That might have been how it worked in your company, but that is not the way it usually works.


That is how it is supposed to work. When an order is canceled, the manager or phone person or makeline person or delivery driver in the store who spoke to the customer and canceled the order or noticed that the online ordering system sent a message to the store that the ordered was canceled, they are required to call the driver and inform them. This is poor management to not keep the driver in the loop. Management should be reprimanded for not doing this. It causes friction in the workplace and lowers employee moral.


I agree that that is how is should work. I would like to point out that your scenario includes an assumption, that the driver will have a mobile phone with them and that they will answer a call while they are at work. Is it your position that your delivery drivers provide a mobile phone so they can take work calls while on the clock? If that is your position, I sure hope you are compensating those employees for the cost of providing that tool for your benefit.

I agree that it is poor management to not keep the driver in the loop.

I agree that management should be reprimanded for not doing that.

I agree that it causes friction in the workplace and lowers employee morale.



thejax wrote:
Yes. No one is arguing that the store does not have the discretion to refund the order. What is being argued is that the order and the tip are separate events. The service that earned the tip was still provided. The owner of the tip was never consulted on whether or not they were willing to refund their property.


The owner of the tip (the customer who placed the order?) does not have to be consulted. It is bad business to call the customer and inform them that somehow the order was canceled and the driver still wants their tip. It makes the store look bad. I don't disagree that the service that earned the tip was still provided. However, due to poor management, the order was canceled, and the driver should not receive a tip, even if the customer intended to tip, because of how the system works. Again, management should know this and this was a poor management decision and not the drivers fault but something the driver has to accept. If you work for a store with a poor management team, I would suggest talking to their supervisors and/or work somewhere else.


I'm going to have to pick this above response apart, because there is a lot there that I want to respond to, so here it goes:

The owner of the tip (the customer who placed the order?) does not have to be consulted.


Currently the law has not spoken, specifically, on this issue. It is my opinion that in specific circumstances the customer should be consulted as to the disposition of the gratuity.

It is bad business to call the customer and inform them that somehow the order was canceled and the driver still wants their tip.


Please understand that this is my opinion. You may disagree with me, that's ok. I understand that my opinion on this topic is very different from what yours is and is different from what most people have.

Bluntly: Then the business should get out of the business where they allow tips to be accepted.

Less Bluntly: I am aware that business owners do not want to make their business look bad, unfortunately there are competing entities; the tipped employee, the employer, the customer.

What is happening is the employer is making decisions for property that they have not legal right to make (IMO). The gratuity is either the customer's property, to do with as they will or the property of the tipped employee, to do with as they will. Never, except in the very narrow rules regarding tip credit and tip pooling, which this is neither, does the employer obtain the authority to make decisions regarding the tip.

What I am asking is simply to give the option to the customer to allow the tipped employee to retain the gratuity, for service that they provided that customarily earns them the gratuity, in the event that the employer decides to refund the employer's portion of the receipt.


thejax wrote:
That is where there is disagreement. It is my argument, and that of others here, that the service that earned the tip was provided and that the tip is a separate event from the amount collected for the service provided by the employer. The employer has control over the portion of the receipt that is their property, no control over the portion of the receipt that is the property of the tipped employee. And that by refunding the customer that portion (the gratuity) the employer has disposed of the employee's property.


You keep saying separate event. Its not a separate event. Its a separate line item on a delivery ticket in the point of sale system. An employer does have control of the drivers tip if they can cancel and order and forfeit your tip. Now, that doesn't make it morally correct but thats the way the cookie crumbles. And if by canceling the order, you state that the employer is disposing of the employees property? Well yes and no. Think of it as a cash tip. If a customer you delivered to did not tip you and told you he will get back to you about it then later that day the customer personally drops by the store and leaves your tip with the manager, that tip does not become your property until it is given to you, personally. So with that said, if the store, say, caught on fire, and the cash from the tip burned up in the cash register, the store should not be required to still give you that tip because it was not yet your property. Now, if the manager asked for all or a portion of your daily tips to be physically handed to them so that they could count and verify them and the manager for some reason refuses to give it back, then the tips were your property and that manager has a lot of explaining to do.


Again, I will need to separate the above response, here goes:

You keep saying separate event. Its not a separate event.


It is a separate event, that is occurring at the same time.

Event A: The customer pays for the services/products that the employer is providing.

Event B: The customer is providing a gift to the tipped employee for the service that the tipped employee provides. That gift is the property of the tipped employee.

At no time do the funds from Event B become the employer's property. Those funds are only being held by the employer until they are disbursed to the tipped employee.


Its a separate line item on a delivery ticket in the point of sale system.


I am well aware of this.

An employer does have control of the drivers tip if they can cancel and order and forfeit your tip.


I am aware that this is currently the state things are in right now. That is the topic of this thread and where our opinions diverge.

Now, that doesn't make it morally correct but thats the way the cookie crumbles.


I find it a bit dishonest for you to bring up morality and then simply dismiss it because it does not benefit the business; but I don't expect much morality from management or business owners. I understand that management and business owners are in it for themselves and their individual profits. I understand that managers, at least those that want to move up in the corporate chain or those that participate in profit sharing) subsume a part of their individual interests to the interests of the business and that by subsuming those individual interests their mind set changes from that of an individual to that of a drone. I also understand that by stating my opinion you will likely become personally offended and lash out at me because I have personally offended you.




And if by canceling the order, you state that the employer is disposing of the employees property?


Actually, that is only partially what I am stating.

When an employer cancels an order, after the tipped employee has performed the services that customarily earns the tipped employee a gratuity and the customer has gifted a gratuity (in whatever payment option the customer chose) the employer is disposing of the employee's property (the gratuity that was gifted by the customer) without consultation of either party that may have legal standing to make a claim of said property (the gratuity). At no time does the employer have legal standing to claim said property (the gratuity), excepting under very specific rules that do not apply under this specific situation.


Think of it as a cash tip.


I always think of a cash tip. It is easiest to address all issues as though they are a cash tip, because then you can see where the employer's argument fails, as we are about to see.. oh wow... you took that in a direction I did not foresee. Now, how about this scenario?

Tipped employee delivers order, collects, in cash, the receipt total and a cash amount the customer gifts as a tip. Hours later the customer shows up at the restaurant, complaining that the food product was not to their satisfaction. Management decides to refund the customer the cash amount of their order. The customer demands the gratuity back also. Management can:

1. Refund the gratuity from the store's account.

2. Ask the tipped employee to refund the gratuity

Under option 2 there are additional options.

2a: Tipped employee agrees to refund the gratuity.

2b: Tipped employee refuses to refund the gratuity.

Under 2b there are additional possibilities.

2b - 1: Employer decides to accept this and refunds the customer's gratuity from the employer's property.

2b - 2: Employer threatens tipped employee with retaliation if tipped employee does not give customer the tipped employee's property.

Scenarios 1, , 2a, 2b, 2b-1 are allowed under law.

Scenario 2b-2 is a form of retaliation, which is a violation of the law. I understand that you may not believe this to be so, and you've likely been told you are allowed to do this, you're not.


If a customer you delivered to did not tip you and told you he will get back to you about it then later that day the customer personally drops by the store and leaves your tip with the manager, that tip does not become your property until it is given to you, personally.


Wow.. that is a very specific, self serving, as close to non-existant scenario as I have ever seen.

First, let me assure you that if a customer I delivered to told me he would get back to me later that day, I would not believe that customer and expect to never receive a tip from them for that order.

In the event that the customer did drop off a tip, that was intended for me, it does become my property. The manager is only holding my property until management can disburse that property to me. If I actually did receive a tip for this order, I would be pleasantly surprised.


So with that said, if the store, say, caught on fire, and the cash from the tip burned up in the cash register, the store should not be required to still give you that tip because it was not yet your property.


Thank you for extending your self serving, as close to non-existant scenario to new heights.

While I can agree that the gratuity might never find it's way into the tipped employee's hands, that does not mean that the tip is still not owed to the tipped employee. Let us continue your scenario...

Prior to management disbursing the gratuity to the tipped employee it was intended for, the manager made note of the gratuity in the POS. At the end of the day the accounts were completed, the tills counted, and all the other stuff the manager needs to do, and the store closed; the tip amount was assessed against the employee's earnings, but not disbursed to said employee. All accounts are updated in the computer system, which is backed up offsite. During the evening the store burnt down. It is your contention that the tip no longer exists, but you would be wrong.

Months later, after the store is rebuilt, management and employees begin working again. The same tipped employee makes a delivery to the same customer, where the customer mentions that they (the customer) had dropped off a tip for the tipped employee they day before the fire. The tipped employee confides that he never received the gratuity that the customer presented to his manager.

Now the employer has received the proceeds of their insurance claim, which included the cash amount of the gratuity the employer was holding on to for the tipped employee, but did not give that cash amount to the tipped employee because.. you know... they forgot. That amount does not become the property of the employer, it is still the property of the tipped employee; all you've done is shown an example of how an employer can steal from an employee.

Now, the employee goes back to the manager that accepted the gratuity from the customer, the gratuity that was meant for the this specific tipped employee. The manager denies it ever happened and refuses to make good on the employer's legal responsibility to disburse the tipped employees property to the tipped employee; all you've done is shown an example of how an employer can steal from an employee.

Now, let's assume the manager remembers the customer coming by and dropping off the tip for this specific tipped employee:

A good manager would pay out the gratuity to the tipped employee, because they knew that the gratuity had not been given to the tipped employee.

A bad manager would tell the employee that they are shit out of luck. That the employee assumes an equal amount of risk as the business.


Now, if the manager asked for all or a portion of your daily tips to be physically handed to them so that they could count and verify them and the manager for some reason refuses to give it back, then the tips were your property and that manager has a lot of explaining to do.


Yes, that is also an example of management stealing the tipped employee's property. This example does not absolve the manager/business from obey the law in your previous example. That you feel it does astounds me.

You seem to believe that as long as the employer denies the tipped employee a gratuity that never physically made it into the hands of the tipped employee then that gratuity is in limbo and the employer can retain that gratuity as their property. That is not how the law works. I understand that is how you believe it works, but that is not how the law works.

thejax wrote:
I agree. This statement does not address the issue being discussed though.

Who are you to judge that my statement does not address the issue being discussed? And YES it does it explain the issue fully. Because poor management lead to this order being canceled, which should not have ever happened in this case. The order should of been zeroed out so that you still got your tip. Thats not what happened here because your management team used POOR JUDGMENT.


Who am I? I am elric92!!! Roar!?!

You have a problem. You believe that because you make a statement it automatically has value. The statement you made does not address the topic under discussion, but a tangential topic that you were addressing in your mind.



Ok. I am stopping here for now. I will be starting a new post addressing the rest of your response/comments. I may have to put that off for a few hours though. Please wait until I am respond fully.
Don't expect others to fight your Battles

Closing Driver
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:12 am
thejax wrote:The only thing I am trying to understand from this is how did your order get canceled if you completed the delivery?


Simple. Most of the Big 3 (Dominos, Papa Johns, Pizza Hut) have some sort of way to keep customer's happy in the event of a complaint. At Dominos, ANY time there is a complain, there are 3 rules to follow: Apologize, give them what they want and give them something extra. I am not paraphrasing, it is their rule called Wowing the customer. It is drilled into your head and you are actually quizzed this by upper management and corporate auditors. So if you called in after the delivery and claimed the pizza was cold or wrong or whatever, and you want a refund, they are REQUIRED to refund your money. They MAY want the product back, but most don't since it is generally a hassle. Now, as has been said, if this happens, does that negate the service I provided as a driver? No. So therefore, the gratuity should still be applicable. But it isn't, which is morally wrong and completely illegal. THAT is the issue of this post.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 5:13 am
thejax wrote:
Uhmm... mileage and tips are mutually exclusive. And you would be wrong in regards to your assertion that the employer is not legally obligated to pay mileage. The use of the vehicle is not dependent upon whether or not an order is completed, only that the vehicle was used for the primary benefit of the employer. That the employer decide to cancel the order does not mitigate the employer's legal responsibility to ensure that they are paying the employee the applicable minimum wage.


False. Your employer did not open their doors to serve the delivery drivers in their community who needed a job. The store is not there to serve you. You are there for your employer and your customers. Thats the type of relationship it is and thats how it works. If a store does not want to pay you mileage, they won't pay you mileage. The store does not care that you are using your vehicle and putting wear and tear on it for their benefit. You make it seem like you feel entitled to mileage and you aren't. Just as when someone gets in a car accident and they are legally entitled to compensation doesn't mean they will get it. Now... a "good" management team will still identify the store and employee relationship I mentioned previously but will care about their drivers and do what they can to keep them happy within reason. When I have my say in a restaurant operation, the drivers get a fair wage and fair mileage AND always get the mileage they deserve. However, I do not work for your particular store at this time and therefore, it is up to your management teams discretion on how all that works out. Which the odds do not seem very good for you because from what you describe, your management team makes poor decisions.


Wow... You really have no idea who you are talking, that is a shame, but understandable. I suggest you take the time to click the link in my signature. Read that 23 page document and then investigate all the individual laws cited. Then put together a rebuttal to each individual claim; this will show that you have some understanding of the issue. Also be aware that this issue, of mileage, has been addressed scores, if not hundreds, of times throughout the United States,here are just 42 examples.

Ohh and when you read document, remember that $0.25 per mile was a mileage reimbursement that the employer was willing to pay more than 5 years ago and remember that you are proposing to pay $0.20 per mile.

I will leave the rest of your paragraph alone.


thejax wrote:
Again, you misunderstand the employer's responsibility to ensure the employer is paying the employee the applicable minimum wage. mileage reimbursement and tips are mutually exclusive events and have very specific rules for each. I wonder as to why you bring up mileage reimbursement when the topic being discussed is gratuities.

There is no misunderstanding. You just seem to have a control problem.


I do not believe there is a misunderstanding, at least on my part. The misunderstanding, and there is one, is on your part. Tips and mileage reimbursement are mutually exclusive events. That you do not understand this illustrates your lack of education, contrary to you assertion otherwise.

I do have a 'control problem', what does that have to do with you misunderstanding applications of the law?


thejax wrote:
If I provided the service that earned me a gratuity (which is my property), the employer should not have the ability to dispose of my property.

I disagree. Again, its not your property. It is supposed to end up your property, but it is not your property yet. Your tip was forfeited due to a canceled order. This, in my opinion, was wrong, because of how management handled the order. This is a problem you need to take up with your manager's supervisor, such as the District Manager, Franchisee, or Owner. You management team needs to be retrained.


Almost missed this entire paragraph. I think I'll leave it alone, since I've pretty much responded to any point you've made, in the above quote, somewhere else in my responses below.


thejax wrote:
You confuse "reimburse" with "dispose". Our, or at least my, argument is that the employer should only be allowed to refund that portion of the customer's order that is the employer's property. The tip is never the employer's property. Since the tip is never the employer's property the employer should not be making any decisions regarding that amount.


I am not confused. I went to college. I know those two word mean two different things. You are very condescending. You ever read what you type? And you are right, the management team should be "able", not "allowed", to refund the order, which is the employers portion. Which is easy to do. The manager goes in the order with their security pin and zeros out the order. Order not canceled and driver still gets the tip.


OK.. I'll have to pick this apart....

thejax wrote:I am not confused. I went to college.


Thank you for that laugh. You seem to be asserting that because you 'went to college' that this precludes the possibility that you are can ever be confused. I find that, quite simply, hilarious.

thejax wrote:I know those two word mean two different things.


While you may know the meanings of the two individual words, you are not properly applying them in the proper context. We were not discusssing mileage reimbursement until you brought it up. Mileage reimbursement was never a topic within this thread, you brought it up. Why you brought it up confuses me, since it is not related to the topic of tompace's original post. You just threw it out there.

thejax wrote:You ever read what you type?


I do. Did you desire to continue that thought?

thejax wrote:And you are right, the management team should be "able", not "allowed", to refund the order, which is the employers portion.


I feel as though you are purposefully attempting to misconstrue my position, so I will succinctly convey my position.

The employer should be "able" and "allowed" to refund that portion of the order that is the employer's property. The employer should also have the ability to refund that portion of the order that is the tipped employee's property, as long as the tipped employee has given permission, to the employer, to refund that portion of the order that is the property of the tipped employee.

Where we differ is when we determine the gratuity has become the property of the tipped employee. That is the topic of this thread.


thejax wrote:Which is easy to do.


I agree and disagree.

It is easy to do technically, but employers do not see the benefit in implementing this technically easy thing. Employers, actually their attorneys, are also aware that by implementing this easy technical feature, the employer is admitting that once the customer gifts the gratuity that gift becomes the tipped employee's property. Which is the crux of this discussion.

It is difficult to do socially, because if done the employer would be admitting that the gratuity, once gifted by the customer, is the property of the tipped employee; this is not something employers want to do.


thejax wrote:The manager goes in the order with their security pin and zeros out the order.


That is a very simplistic explanation of what occurs and conveniently ignores that the portion of the receipt that is the property of the tipepd employee. Again, you are advocating for the ability for the employer to dispose of the tipped employee's property.


thejax wrote:The manager goes in the order with their security pin and zeros out the order. Order not canceled and driver still gets the tip.


Then the driver, who has not been informed of order manipulation by management, goes to check in from the orders(s), enters in the gratuity amount, and moves on.

Maybe the driver noticed that the order total was not the same, maybe not.

Maybe the POS balks at a gratuity with no order total.

I've experienced a POS that balked at gratuities over 50% of the order total, and I took steps to address that issue. Originally the POS would not allow a credit card gratuity that exceeded 50% of the order total. No amount of contacting franchisor help desk would force the acceptance of the gratuity. That has since changed. No longer does that specific employer, including down stream franchises and upstream corporate stores, completely disallow gratuities in excess of any known %. Now a simple code, provided by the corporate help desk, will allow the gratuity to added.


thejax wrote:I think you seem very standofish to me because I am not a delivery driver.


Your conclusion that I am standoffish, because I believe you are not a delivery driver, is erroneous. I am standoffish because your conclusions are erroneous.

thejax wrote: I need you to understand, why I shouldn't have to explain anything to you,


LOL, seriously? And you call me condescending?



thejax wrote:I was a delivery driver for many years and have also worked hard to fight for all the delivery drivers in the stores i have worked in in a management and consulting capacity.


Really? Did you ever file a class action lawsuit against any of your employers?

Did you ever file charges through state or federal Department of Labor against your employer?

Did you ever file charges through the National Labor Relations Board against your employer?

thejax wrote: Now while I am not an expert and I can always learn something, you need to understand I am on YOUR SIDE.


You are clearly not an expert, I don't fault you for that, I have been trying to point that out though. I also do not believe that you are on my side, you may be able to persuade me otherwise. I understand that you believe you are on "my side", but you simply are not, as evidenced by your positions. And it's ok for you not to be on my side. Having an opponent that is willing to engage allows me to hone my arguments. I may not always convince others, but hey... there are still people that believe the Earth is flat. I'm not going out trying to convince them that they are wrong, that's insanity.


thejax wrote: I am not here to bash delivery drivers.


Good. I am not here to bash management/owners; it's just a by-product of what this forum is about. I believe you misconstrued the purpose of this forum. Now I cannot speak for the owner of this forum, but I can speak for myself; this forum is for the education of delivery drivers. Part of that education includes addressing unfair business practices that employers practice. While you may not believe a specific practice is unfair, your opinion is simply that, an opinion that can be attacked and possibly destroyed. Just as my opinions can be attacked and possibly destroyed.



thejax wrote: I am here to offer advice and also gain perception of drivers for my own educational purposes


Then, in my opinion, you need to step back and listen (read actually), instead of preaching to me. Your experience, your authority in your work environment, does not convey upon you any special treatment here. Actually, your positions as management, owners(?), and consultant place you firmly in the opposition. If you cannot grok that, I would suggest you just move on. If you are able to grok, then you may learn something. You may even teach me something.

thejax wrote:to help make work conditions at places I have contracts for a better working environment for drivers.


Well, cool. Where do you have contracts? What is your position within those companies?


thejax wrote:So I ask that you respect where I come from and know that I respect where you come from.


Respect goes both ways, thejax. I have not purposefully disrespected you, although I am fairly sure you believe I have.

thejax wrote:You also think of things from an hourly employee's prospective, not an employers prospective.


You are incorrect in your assumption. And that incorrectness is why I have a problem with you. I fully understand the employer's position. What I do not do is accept is that their position is the correct position.



thejax wrote: In regards to this tip situation, I want to inform you that everything in the point of sale system gets reported to corporate.


I am very much aware of that.

thejax wrote: Such as, if it is a Domino's franchise, corporate will see the sales data and the canceled orders data.


I read this sentence and realize that you are lacking in information and education. At some point in time we might discuss where your education is lacking, or not. <shrugs shoulders>

thejax wrote:You may be in a situation that your management team is making poor decisions because someone above them is telling them to cancel the order after a driver left because the sales data presents itself differently then if the order is canceled.


No, I am not in that situation, anymore. I have experienced this situation in the past. I may experience this situation in the future.

thejax wrote: I don't know why upper management may want to see an ordered canceled over zeroing out, so thats something you need to discuss with your management team and their supervisors, if appropriate.


I've been there, done that.

thejax wrote:According to the SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) in my experience, and its not like I have only done this once or twice, once a driver leaves, the order should be canceled IF the driver has not completed the delivery.


What is your definition of "completed the delivery"?

What is the definition within this SOP you are alluding to?

Are you able to present to us a copy of this, or any, SOP for any of the companies you have worked for?

What is the definition for all the companies that that exists? (rhetorical and assinine question of me)

You seem to be under the impression that all companies work the same as the company/companies you worked for. They do not.

thejax wrote: Second, I have no idea why an order would be canceled if the driver has already delivered.


Then, in all my blunt honesty, you have a very poor imagination. And a very poor memory. How about you go back and read tompace's original post that started this entire thread?

thejax wrote:Theoretically you can't cancel an order that is already in the customer's hands and the driver has left.


Theoretically? <shakes head> did you really just use that word? Yep, you used that word. Wow.

Theoretically and in reality POS systems are able to do this thing, cancel orders while they are still dispatched to a specific delivery driver. Did you really not know this?

I have had many, if not hundreds of, orders canceled while I was out on the road with those same orders dispatched to me. I am sure that other delivery drivers here can attest to this being a reality, not just theoretically impossible.


thejax wrote: The only scenario I see after a customer received the order is that the customer was upset about something, called the store, and the order is refunded.


Well, that's not what happens everywhere. If it were, then we would not be having this discussion.


thejax wrote:Which, if the order is refunded, the driver still does not get the tip, if the tip was on a credit card, in most cases.


And it is that condition that we are discussing. Seriously... did you not read tompace's original post that started this thread? It is the credit card tips that we are discussing. It is the inability for the employer to separate their portion of the receipt from the gratuity portion of the receipt that is the crux of this entire discussion.

thejax wrote:Again, please share these things with your management staff so see where they stand.


I have. I also hope those driver's reading this thread share these things with their management, hoping that their management does not retaliate against them for addressing this issue of wage and/or condition of employment.

thejax wrote:They may not know what they are really supposed to be doing.


For the most part, they know. What they are supposed to do is (in no specific order):

1. Make the customer happy by any means possible.

2. Increase profits for the company by any means possible.


Ok, I think I am done.
Don't expect others to fight your Battles

n00b
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:06 pm

Where do you work?:
Indy
User Type:
Pizza Delivery Driver
Car you drive:
sedan
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:18 pm
Bad management, they should not have cancelled that order after it being delivered and not having a chance to see what was wrong with it. The driver did his job, at the very least management should have let him keep the tip regardless if they charged back the order. Keep everybody happy and back up your employees. Those people were looking for a freebie and will do it again. I would have forfeited my tip for the chance to drive back and take back their order.
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