Papa Johns Franchisee Forbidding Tips At the Till

Tip Credit is a federal law that allows employers to take a 'credit' against the minimum wage, and pay lower wages to employees who earn tips.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:14 pm
gregster wrote:You don't realize how difficult it is to find proof of something that the law does NOT say!

I do realize how difficult it is.

gregster wrote:The law also does not say employers cannot ban employees from using the word 'giraffe' at work. Try and find proof of that!

No thanks. I would consider it not worth my time. Although, if I had said it was legal and someone asked me to support my conclusion, I would decide whether it was worth my time to prove to that someone that my conclusion was valid.

gregster wrote:My repeated explanations were valid and on point. It was you who continued to fail to provide (valid) support for your conclusion (which I pointed out), so you insisted that I instead provide further proof or be declared wrong by default.

Your repeated un-supported conclusion. It was YOU that failed to support your conclusion until I hounded you to do so. Stop trying to lay blame on me for your lack of providing support. You do not like being challenged, fine, I understand that. But do not try to lay blame on me for you not supporting your conclusion.

I do thank you for providing the information you found to support your conclusion. That information does help and will be given to help others understand how it is legal, although a little at odds witht he actual implementation of the company policies.

I'll also pose this scenario to you again...

Let's also assume the following: In store staff speak to the Area manager that submitted the memo(policy); Area manager verbally informs the in store staff that they are still allowed to accept tips if they are given. (BTW this actually happened, or so I've been told by multiple in store staff)

What would be your conclusion to the validity of the actual policy banning the acceptance of tip?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:03 pm
elric92 wrote:Your repeated un-supported conclusion.


It was supported buy both logic AND the link to the entire section of law about tipped employees. I told you that since it was not illegal, then is must be legal, and supported that by letting you review that entire section of law which in fact had no law against it.

elric92 wrote:I'll also pose this scenario to you again...

Let's also assume the following: In store staff speak to the Area manager that submitted the memo(policy); Area manager verbally informs the in store staff that they are still allowed to accept tips if they are given. (BTW this actually happened, or so I've been told by multiple in store staff)

What would be your conclusion to the validity of the actual policy banning the acceptance of tip?


The validity? :shock: Haven't we already covered that in excruciating detail?

1. They posted a written rule that was legal.

2. The area manager verbally suspended or revoked that rule.

BOTH are store policies that are allowed by law.

A employer may legally ban employees from receiving tips.

An area supervisor may issue or suspend any policies that they have the authority to do so. That is a matter between themselves and their superiors.

Why do I feel like I am trying to explain the color red to a blind person?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:24 pm
gregster wrote:Why do I feel like I am trying to explain the color red to a blind person?


You can stop being snide, dismissive, and an ass gregster. You are getting angry at me when it was not my intention to anger you. I am not asking these questions to piss you off, I'm trying to get your help in formulating a response to the way this franchise is operating.

The written policy is legal, ok, got it. Thanks for helping me understand why it is legal. I've passed this information on to a few of the in store staff already.

The person that posted the written policy verbally told at least one employee (a shift lead) that said employee (the shift lead) can still accept tips, at the register. this is also legal, go it.

There's a written policy that says you cannot do something and the person (as far as I know) that made the written policy is telling the employees that they can violate the policy, that he just fucking posted.

How can an employee protect themselves when conflicting information is being given out?
No you cannot do that thing (written).
Yes you can do that thing (verbal).
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:07 am
elric92 wrote:You can stop being snide, dismissive, and an ass gregster. You are getting angry at me when it was not my intention to anger you. I am not asking these questions to piss you off, I'm trying to get your help in formulating a response to the way this franchise is operating.


Then stop being snide, dismissive, and an ass to ME when asking for my help:

elric92 wrote:Please provide support for your conclusion. If you are unable to do that, then I can see no other recourse but to deem your conclusion invalid.


I politely quoted AND linked to the ENTIRE section of law covering that area stating that there was no such requirement in the law. I later politely replied that your incorrect interpretations of what CUSTOMERS do has nothing to do with what EMPLOYERS may do in banning tips. Your response? Well, you're still wrong anyways and forever will be until you jump thru every hoop I put before you.

Piss off!

How much money are your attorneys earning per hour to provide you their assistance? I am helping YOU and THEM and EVERYONE ELSE here for absolutely fucking FREE on my own time and at my own expense. At least act like you appreciate it during the same time you are asking me to help you. :roll: Next time you ask me for help, "extend me some fucking courtesy and ASK ME NICELY". :D :oops: :evil:



"No problem."


Now back to more important things.

elric92 wrote:How can an employee protect themselves when conflicting information is being given out?
No you cannot do that thing (written).
Yes you can do that thing (verbal).


Have witnesses to the verbal reversal of the written policy. Document the name of the witness and all parties present to that verbal change in policy for future reference.

and/or: Ask for a written reversal of that policy and that it be posted.

and/or: Ask that the written policy be removed.

Or just suck it up and deal with the fact that employers can and will change policies at any time for any reason and your best defense is to know your and their rights and responsibilities under the law BEFOREHAND, and document things and react accordingly.
"If you ain't on the road, you ain't makin' money!" - gregster

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:39 pm
Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:07 pm
I asked which part of the FLSA allows an employer to ban tips

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:02 am
7 hours later you responded that it did not and linked to http://www.ecfr.gov/

Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:55 am
I thanked you and said I would review.

Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:12 am
I reviewed and found what I felt was pertinent verbiage to the issue in § 531.52 General characteristics of “tips.”

Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:47 am
You again stated that there is no federal law, making no comment on the item I had highlighted.

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:43 pm
I again presented what I felt to be support for my conclusion, and then asked a question; which you seem to have ignored. I'm am fairly confident that you ignored my question because of what I said next
elric92 wrote:Please provide support for your conclusion. If you are unable to do that, then I can see no other recourse but to deem your conclusion invalid.

I said that because you have in the past expected (demanded) that anyone and everyone be able to support their argument with facts. Up to this point your argument was that because there is no federal law banning the banning of tips then banning of tips is allowed by law. I felt that argument was specious, and presented a circular argument.

Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:55 pm
You seem to be getting upset at this point. Asking me to provide something which you had already admitted does not exist. I took that as "I need you to bring me a half cup of of the flavor of a rainbow."

You were also beginning to sway me to your side

Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:01 pm/Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:23 pm
Now you've provided some support for your argument. I read it and now I am fully in agreement with your conclusion. I might not agree with the conclusion, but since I do not have anything more to support my conclusion.. meh.

Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:29 am
I thanked you, again. I probably should have left it at that, but I couldn't. I wanted to try to explain why I was hounding you, expecting you to provide support for your argument. Maybe I could have done so using different words, words that would let you know that I was not upset and that I wanted you to be happy, since you'd just succeeded in changing my mind. But I don't work that way and the tone of my writing does not convey much more then a gruff, fuck you, I'm pissed at you tone. I know this. Believe it or not, I do revise what I write, when I write specifically to you, so as not to piss you off (if you were mad with what I finally sent you should have sen the shit I had written before I revised.. holy shit you might have had an aneurism).

I'm going to stop writing the time line now.

Gregster, I respect what you have done and continue to do as an advocate for delivery drivers. I cannot do more then say that right now, well I could... but you've made it clear that you do not find me attractive (if I have to fucking tell you this part is a joke though...)... so all I can say is thank you.

You and I are alike in some ways Gregster. We both strive to educate ourselves on these workplace issues. You a bit more then I do. I've only been at this for 1 year 5 days, you've been at it for close to what, 10 years? I am going to expect more from you then I would expect from say therealpizzaman or darkstarcrashes, you've just plainly had more time to educate yourself. Remember, you've had 10x the time to educate yourself, you're going to be held to a higher standard. I'd expect Thepizzagirl? to hold me to the same standard I hold you.

Ok.. in conclusion.. I'm sorry I offended you, that was not my intent... is almost never my intent (except for that one time).. see I can admit that I have tried to piss you off... I AM honest about my motivations.. ok getting side tracked. I'm sorry... can I have a hug now?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:33 pm
elric92 wrote:But I don't work that way and the tone of my writing does not convey much more then a gruff, fuck you, I'm pissed at you tone. I know this. Believe it or not, I do revise what I write, when I write specifically to you, so as not to piss you off (if you were mad with what I finally sent you should have sen the shit I had written before I revised.. holy shit you might have had an aneurism).


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I LoL'd at this! :lol: 8-)

elric92 wrote: I'm sorry... can I have a hug now?


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:lol:

Honestly, you generally piss me off and aggravate the hell outta me. I'd still rather have you here than to leave.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:40 pm
gregster wrote:
elric92 wrote:The reasons why an employer would want to stop an in-store staff from receiving tips is because as a tipped employee the employee cannot be held responsible for a short till.


Yes they can. Being a tipped employee has nothing to do with that. It is their WAGES that matter in your example, not tips.

The reason an employer might want to forbid employees from receiving tips is that it opens the employer up to IRS audit for tip reporting compliance and increases the employers taxes as they have to pay the employer portion of taxes on tips. Since there in no tip reporting system for insiders and no tip pool is set up, it also opens them up to DOL investigations for wage and tip compliance.



That makes sense.
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